Curse

Adacia Calla · Jun 13, 2005, 08:24 AM // 08:24

No one is allowed to use axes except me. They're my secret weapon.

Schorny · Jun 13, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkenstein

Wouldn't that be were the disrupting axe hit would come into play?

I tried it. Sometimes I get disrupt a vital skill, but most of the time it won't help. You need decent adrenaline and so most of the time disrupting axe is not available. But it works quite well if you are waiting for a vital skill to get cast and the disrupt it. But then you can't use many other adrenaline skills so you are not doing much damage. I haven't tried a hammer yet, but disrupting axe is only good if you are waiting for a special skill to disrupt. One orison or healing breeze interrupt is not that great

Alltough I like axe at the moment the best.

Warlord Teriel · Jun 13, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

I used a sword since the the official release of the game up until a couple days ago and my opinion so far is that axes are better. I run around most the time with Monk as my secondary mainly because of the res's plus enchantments. I do alot of things in PvE with henchmen. With the setups I use for PvE I usually only have room on my skills list for 3 attack skills. For sword I couldnt really get anything I liked. I would use sever, galrath slash/final thrust, hundered blades or try to work in savage slash sometimes. In my opinion it just takes to much adren to get sword skills up.

I switched to axe and so far I really like using Cleave, Penetrating Blow and Cyclone Axe more then any combination I had with a sword. Its fast damage and in alot of PvE cases sever from swordsmanship cant be used on foes. Did some back questing near ascalon yesterday and just owned all the little foes faster then I was with a sword. Hit one of them for 207 damage with penetrating blow and was amazed. I run around with 10 strength for penetration purpose.

The Red Knight · Jun 13, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Axes and swords are even. Hammers by no means are not weak at all, try this combo Judges insite devastating hammer crushing blow mighty blow then heavy blow. Does about 100 dmg per hit. Take battle rage for even funnier results like spammed hammer bashes. Interupting a healing breeze is by the funniest thing to do with a axe esp if your w/n and using defile flesh

Tidus · Jun 13, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I use swords for one reason: Final Thrust. In PvP I average between 150-200 damage using it on monks that are running away. Ahh, silly monks, don't run, you'll just die faster

Warlord Teriel · Jun 13, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Sword Attacks and Skills
Sword Damage Per Second: 18.92
Sword Damage Per Minute: 1135
Galrath Slash Damage Per Second: 24
Galrath Slash Damage Per Minute: 180
Final Thrust Damage Per Second: 48
Final Thrust Damage Per Second: 288

Axe Attacks and Skills
Axe Damage Per Second: 19.37
Axe Damage Per Minute: 1162
Cleave Damage Per Second: 12
Cleave Damage Per Minute: 180
Penetrating Blow (60AL) Damage Per Second: 13.21
Penetrating Blow (60AL) Damage Per Minute: 158
Penetrating Blow (100AL) Damage Per Second: 26.7
Penetrating Blow (100AL) Damage Per Minute: 320

Hammer Attacks and Skills
Damage Per Second: 21.6
Damage Per Minute: 1296
Mighty Blow Damage Per Second: 13.71
Mighty Blow Damage Per Second: 118

This information was pulled from Here

On some of the skills you will notice they have a lower damage per second but a higher damage per minute. for example.

Galrath Slash: 24DPS, 180DPM
Cleave: 12DPS, 180DPM

That is because of the Adrenaline Cost.

Cleave Adrenaline Cost: 4
Galrath Slash Adrenaline Cost: 8

90% of your PvE fights in groups don't last but 30 seconds or so per mob. So the objective there would be to pump out as much damage as you can. Named that heal can last longer and so can foes in PvP (at times). It all depends on how you use it and what you use it for mainly.

Final Thrust has a nice DPS and DPM but before you use it you will be charging up other skills also and when you use it all Adrenaline is gone making you start over. So if it is really used for a "Final" thrust then its awesome.

Without skills the best weapon order is Hammer, Axe, Sword.

BigTru · Jun 14, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Hmm... INteresting... On that Half Moon data from that page... was it taken from an even altitude?

Rey Lentless · Jun 14, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Knockdowns are what make you go hammer, but it still does more damage. In PVP you aren't targetted, so the loss of a shield isn't important either.

Hammer is a great line.

It's sword I don't understand. Why do that instead of axe?

BigTru · Jun 14, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Sword seems better for tanking, IMO, unless you are using Live Vicarously + Vigours Spirit + Cyclone axe on mobs in PvE.

But then again, this game is PvP oriented...

Deathlord · Jun 14, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Sword's are better for tanking because tactics are MADE for tanking and some of the tactics skilled are combined with swords (Riposite... Deadly Riposite... *Of only pvp people learned the importance of these, swords might measure up better in competition*. Plus theres always the old myth and assumptions that swords are better.
I haven't really seen a effective hammer in battle but i don't look at them much (Plus i don't see much of them anyway). I personally don't feel axe and hammer should be compared to each other since hammer is used for a different purpose (Knockdown).

Moskel · Jun 14, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Can somebody explain to me how attacks are doing more damage vs. 100AL than they do against 60AL? I understand they have penetration but a penetrated 60AL is still going to be less armor than a penetrated 100AL?@#?$@?#?

They also listed some horrid selection of skills. For Axe you have nearly unlimited adrenaline if you can get 3 or so enemies around you to spam Cyclone Axe on. For swords with Flourish you have nearly unlimited energy to spam through attacks with. For hammers, well life hurts.

Elementalist damage is messed up too, is that damage vs 60AL when not listed? How exactly is Orb doing more damage to 100AL than it is 60AL?

Uhh Caster's wands doing more damage than a Half Moon on a Ranger? Was the Half Moon used in testing the same damage type as the wand against what AC target? I'd like to see the raw data used to gather the information because to me it all looks pretty bogus.

For the thread topic, Axe is great in PvE, not so great in PvP, I prefer sword since you can use energy based Flourish attacks while you gain adrenaline and when you have adrenaline you can hand out bleeding, deep wounds or 100+ damage hits with Final Thrust.

Scaphism · Jun 14, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Let me try and clarify a few points:

Judge's Insight converts your weapon's damage type to holy type.
Undead enemies and certain necro armors are weak vs holy damage.

Holy damage does not ignore armor. This is a horrible misconception that I've addressed many times in the past, and is also part of the faq.

Certain Smiting Spells ignore armor, like Bane Signet, Banish, and a few others. They also do holy damage type, meaning they double the listed amount vs undead and necros, like I said above.

It's analogous to lightning damage vs lightning spells.
Lightning damage is a type- it has no inherent armor penetration.
Certain lightning spells have 25% armor penetration. That's a property of the skill, not the type of damage.

The benefit of holy damage is that it nullifies a lot of the bonuses people have vs physical armor.
If you attack a warrior with 80+20vs physical armor, using a weapon enchanted with judge's insight, his +20 vs phsyical is useless. That's where the holy damage type pays off- there is no armor in the game that gives a bonus vs holy damage type, there are a few that are weak against it, but there are a lot of armors that give bonuses vs physical damage types (slashing: swords and axes, piercing: bows, crushing: hammers).

The 20% armor penetration is a nice bonus. It is applied after the target's armor is calculated. It's also a clue that holy damage doesn't ignore armor- you can't have armor penetration on something that ignores armor.

So remember: Holy damage doesn't ignore armor. Some smiting spells ignore armor. Lightning damage doesn't have armor penetration- some lightning spells do.

---------------
The chart:
It's a bit out of date and I don't know if Ensign plans on updating it anytime soon. It's a great resource to have but could use some polishing to reflect the retail version of the game. However, there's a lot of skill balancing going on still, so it's a pain to update now with more possible changes happening every day.

-----------
Finally, my opinion on the sword/axe/hammer debate:

Swords have always been popular, because as someone correctly pointed out, they're swords. They also have the "cool" models- Dragon, Fellblade, Shadow, etc..

The general properties on the charts are right:
Swords do the least damage, but they swing quickly and are consistent in their damage. A sword crit is pretty laughable though, compared with axes and hammers.
Axes hit both extremes, so it's a bit of a dice roll. Minimum damage is 6, but maximum is 28, which means they crit hard. They swing fast, and have variety in their skills.
Hammers swing slowest, but hit the hardest, and do it consistently.

Those are the general properties.
Swords will remain popular because they're hard to mess up. There really are no bad skills in the line, so you can make a suboptimal build, but it's really hard to make a bad sword user. Highlight: Frenzy + Hundred Blades is the best way to get spike damage when stacking buffs.

Axes used to live and die with the current state of cleave. Axes are a solid choice that provide a lot of good options. They're a bit more versatile in the conditions they can cause, and skills like Disrupting Chop and Penetrating Blow are persuasive reasons to take axes that can't be found in the other lines.

Hammers have been maligned for a while, but they have their place. The problem is that it's hard to get your adrenal chain going, because the counters to warriors are very common and people rightly fear hammer knockdown. Blind, Wards, reduced attack speed, and Protection Monks make all warriors miserable, but hammers most of all. Hammers themselves are still good, but the current metagame has a lot of anti-warrior hate, making it more difficult to play one effectively.

However, the game is changing. There's a lot of talk about how elementalist spikes are popular, and it's been going on for a few weeks. Once people build their teams to deal with elementalist spike teams, the amount of hate people bring to deal with warriors will lessen, and will give rise to a new wave of warrior based builds. That is, for the teams who pay attention to what builds are being run against them, instead of thinking about how much damage they can crank out against a defenseless target.

Warlord Teriel · Jun 14, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Outstanding Post

JoDiamonds · Jun 14, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Many Air lightning attacks do hidden armor penetration vs. warriors (or so I'm told). This could account for that bizzarreness. It would be good for this information to generally be more public.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 14, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Awesome post schaphism

Jia Xu · Jun 14, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

nice post Scaphism, should clear up the misconceptions.

anyways, on to what i was going to say. The weapon type depends very much on what your overall team build is trying to do. A Hammer Warrior is a great Monk interrupter, and combined with Aftershock on a W/E can be damned dangerous if used correctly. However, they are slow, and other warriors/mesmers can take them apart with relative ease, and there are a lot of warriors and mesmers in tombs atm. Axes are my favourite, purely because everyone used to use swords, and I wanted to suprise people about how good axes actually are.

I suppose you could put it like it is in Real Life : a sword has more finesse, and you can do more with it, hence gashes, sever arteries, ripostes and so on - more arty farty tricks and conditions. Axes are used for smacking their way through armour and doing lots of damage, although if someone came at you with a sword you'd be hard pressed to stop them doing what they want. Axes are a damage dealer, so for most people who want to Warrior, they are actually a better choice than swords, which are slightly more reactive and defensive, with good conditions and trapping.

I tried to avoid mentioning specific skills, as part of the beauty of Guild Wars is that swords can beat axes when certain necro debuffs are being used etc.

MadeInChina · Jun 15, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Hey all, I'm pretty new, but after having done some research, I decided to be a Warrior/Elementalist (despite the lack of energy and whatnot) to become a hammer/earth magic character. I don't see what's so bad about the hammer, I do more damage than most warriors and I love the knockdown skills and seeing my opponents on the floor helpless and about to die. After knocking them down, they are vulnerable to my earth skills, which can create massive damage. Sure, I might be missing a shield or be attacking really slowly, but I'm fine with using the hammer in berserker stance. Plus, it gives me the adrenaline boost I need to use my knockdown skills. Overall, I like hammer the best.

psibim · Jun 15, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eskimo Bob

I am a axe warrior and I can dish out the hurt fairly well in pvp. Except a I can't solo a monk, they just heal to fast. That is where hammers come in, with all those knockdown skills you can take out a monk on your own.

As a monk and many other things (i play too much:/ ) I can say that Warriors in general dont bother me (1on1) except for Hammers. Not that I've ever had a Hammer solo me but they are just annoying for the KD and thats it.

Hell Marauder · Jun 15, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

While most people talk about hammer they talk about knockdown. But I find weakness to be a really nice condition a hammerer can render, and is very useful against classes dealing physical damages like warriors and rangers. In addition, a hammerer can use belly smash to make someone blind, a condition that no other warrior types can make.

The Shrodekill · Jun 15, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

u guys are really underestimating hammers here... they are much better anti-casters then swords and axes w/ their knockdown skills. monks cant cast a thing if the hammerer is doing it right.